I agree with 99% of this, and you've described the problems well. But your case against eliminating student debt seems to be 1) it just makes the banks whole and doesn't address the underlying problems, and 2) here are all of the things we should do instead.
Given the actions pondered by the administration right now, perhaps you are right.
But to really fix things, what needs to happen is that all student loan debts be forgiven, and the creditors (banks and government) be forced to write them off.
This would require legislation, but it could be a very simple law.
All of the myriad changes you suggest would then follow, but rather than requiring numerous legislative actions, they would be worked out in the markets and politically over time as the system adjusted to what is essentially a decoupling of debt and education.
Your citation to Deuteronomy hints at one of the fundamental problems we have, namely our whole system's reliance on debt with compound interest. There is wisdom in the ancient prohibitions against usury, and we probably should count amongst our original sins the construction of a world heedless of that.
Specifically here the problem is debt with no underlying collateral. (The case for commercial debt and for purchases like housing are much stronger.)
The proposal by the Biden administration would help a few on the margins (low income people for whom 10K would have a material benefit), and for that reason alone, I'd take it as something better than nothing. Politically it will undoubtedly backfire as people perceive it as taking from the poor to help the rich (although it does neither), but at this point I have no concern for the political prospects of the Democratic Party.
I'm sure my suggestion will never happen, but I'm just as sure that your proposals will also never happen (or to the extent they do, they won't play out as intended). So if we are going to discuss hypotheticals we should talk about the real problem which is simply a political struggle between banks and the people at large.
Thank you for this thoughtful comment! I like your alternative of making the creditors (instead of taxpayers) responsible for writing off the loans. Really I like any idea that puts some of the risk and responsibility back on the other beneficiaries of the current system. And wouldn't it be great to use another idea from Deuteronomy and have a jubilee year, or something similar that would give people a fresh start? We can dream, right?
One the issues right now is that we're in an inflationary period. A lot of people have their brains stuck in the Great Recession, where we needed to put any spending out there we could to put the economy back on track. I would have supported more forgiveness then, since it would have been something. But, right now, the economy is at its a capacity. Any additional spending will increase prices without increasing output. So forgiving loans to help people a buy, for instance, would just increase the price of homes, which doesn't seem very progressive.
As for the credential inflation, it seems like the best solution is to stop printing the credential. I would love a German-style system where a much smaller proportion of the population can attend college.
I hadn’t thought about the issue of plain old regular inflation, and I agree that handing out money to forgive debt--especially for borrowers who can afford to pay it back--will make inflation worse, which would also hurt low- and middle-income people.
I agree that a lot of people feel compelled to get a degree because so many jobs that never used to require one …often now require one, such as administrative assistant. I like your idea of incentives for employers who don’t play that silly game.
On the other hand, it’s become something of a requirement for office work, such that everyone who applies has a bachelor’s degree at minimum and often a master’s of some kind. The people who don’t have anything are often not the “go-getters”— and therefore, while there’s nothing in the nature of the work that requires higher education, the person who pursued a degree or two is viewed as a “typical worker” and the person who “only” completed high school is viewed with suspicion. Why didn’t they continue in school?
And to be fair, most people who choose not to pursue an education are _not_ like the young man you mentioned who took his college fund and did something else with it. (Very cool by the way.)
Add this wrinkle: the online diploma mills. At my workplace, among the administrative staff, there are a _lot_ of people pursuing master’s degrees or even PhDs from online schools and one can’t help but wonder how those expensive degrees are helping anyone do their jobs, except to make them look better educated when they want to move up. But indeed, it seems to work that way. Don’t you want to hire a PhD, even a diploma mill one, as opposed to a high school graduate? It seems a lot of people do.
I don’t know about anyone else, but when I’m hiring, if a candidate has a diploma mill degree, that’s a ding against them.
But…all that being said, I still think everyone, whether they want to pursue a trade or get a traditional college education, should be prepared by society to enter the world of work without debt.
You know infinitely more than I do about universities in Europe. But I do know that what provides value in the college experience isn’t the pretty campus and the gym and the increasingly nice dorm rooms. What provides value is the education. So, if it’s fair to say that European universities are more spartan/utilitarian, then so be it. That’s a trade I’d gladly take for our American kids.
On the other hand, I’m not a fan of “knowing what you want to study” ahead of time. A lot of kids do know, but a lot don’t. Then again, the huge UC system in California requires that kids apply and be admitted to a specific major, after which it’s very hard to switch.
I don’t like it, but again, it’s a trade-off I would accept (spartan universities, applying to a particular major) in exchange for a debt-free education for every American who wants it.
Thank you for sharing these thoughts! I agree with you about European universities vs. those in the US. My son went to university in the UK, and it was a great choice for him because he knew from the time that he was about 10 that he wanted to study history. But most kids don’t know their calling so young, and for them, the US college experience of exploration makes more sense.
Don’t you think the nice facilities and fun times are part of what makes so many American students want to go to college? I’m not against the spartanization idea, but I think it would not only disincentivize college for the people who would do better in other career tracks, too much would make college a drudge.
Nah, I’m one of those old grumps who don’t think you need a lot of luxury and comfort in college if what you’re pursuing is knowledge in a field you’re passionate about —that’s enough reward In itself isn’t it?
How could the pursuit of knowledge ever be a drudge? Haha
Maybe that’s not realistic, and I also defer to Mari’s comment, because she has real-world experience with these other universities and the differences between them and the US, which I just don’t.
But don’t you think to some extent fancy dorms and better food and exercise facilities are being “sold” to people when that’s not the stuff that should be “sold”?
Or maybe another way to put it is, there’s a lot of room between excess luxury and spartanization.
I agree, and in fact the strong preference for European students from my kids’ schools (who can afford it) is to go to US colleges. The UK was a great choice for my son academically, but he got no career help or counseling. He would have liked to have stayed in the UK to work, but his university basically said, “You’re on your own for getting a visa, making contacts, finding internships, etc.” I was surprised, because my daughter’s small liberal arts college has career counseling, help with finding internships, seminars on writing a resume and interviewing, etc., beginning immediately. She has already taken advantage of them.
"At my workplace, among the administrative staff, there are a _lot_ of people pursuing master’s degrees or even PhDs from online schools and one can’t help but wonder how those expensive degrees are helping anyone do their jobs, except to make them look better educated when they want to move up. But indeed, it seems to work that way."
I can't believe employers are falling for this shit. There's the whole "Ed.D" thing that university admins have, which doesn't seem to have made them better at administering universities. In my field, there's a trillion "data science" masters where you copy-paste code that could be copy-pasted for free elsewhere.
My algorithms regularly feed me ads for fake-looking tech degrees that I could have! Yes it seems a lot of employers in our region are enamored with these degrees, to the extent that probably a majority of the applicants for the entry-level admin jobs have master’s degrees. Some are real and some are diploma mill degrees.
It's just such a shitty life, honestly. Why is it considered progressive to want people to spend more and more time in school? Unlike universities, at least my bourgeoise neoliberal overlords pay me.
Very thoughtful and challenging article. I think a great place to begin is honoring our commitment to the kids who signed up for public service. It's a disgrace so few have received the forgiveness they deserve. Why oh why is it so hard to implement the laws we pass in a manner that reflects the intent?
These kinds of programs are great and I know many who have benefited from them. State schools sometimes have partnerships with the community colleges, ensuring the credits can transfer to existing degree programs. This is especially great in states like Georgia, which pays the tuition of resident students who maintain a certain (I think a B-average) GPA, if they attend state schools. My brother just finished his master’s in teaching there, having moved from a community college to an excellent four-year state school.
Community colleges are such great options--the teaching is often better than at flagship universities because community college professors aren’t under pressure to publish, so they can focus on teaching. The husband of my friend I mentioned at the end of the post was the president of two different community colleges in the Twin Cities, and he said that the students were especially dedicated and hardworking because they were the first in their families to go to college.
I have a BA but I’m taking science prerequisites at community college for a second, accelerated BA in nursing. Many many of the students in my classes are adults with families.
I agree with 99% of this, and you've described the problems well. But your case against eliminating student debt seems to be 1) it just makes the banks whole and doesn't address the underlying problems, and 2) here are all of the things we should do instead.
Given the actions pondered by the administration right now, perhaps you are right.
But to really fix things, what needs to happen is that all student loan debts be forgiven, and the creditors (banks and government) be forced to write them off.
This would require legislation, but it could be a very simple law.
All of the myriad changes you suggest would then follow, but rather than requiring numerous legislative actions, they would be worked out in the markets and politically over time as the system adjusted to what is essentially a decoupling of debt and education.
Your citation to Deuteronomy hints at one of the fundamental problems we have, namely our whole system's reliance on debt with compound interest. There is wisdom in the ancient prohibitions against usury, and we probably should count amongst our original sins the construction of a world heedless of that.
Specifically here the problem is debt with no underlying collateral. (The case for commercial debt and for purchases like housing are much stronger.)
The proposal by the Biden administration would help a few on the margins (low income people for whom 10K would have a material benefit), and for that reason alone, I'd take it as something better than nothing. Politically it will undoubtedly backfire as people perceive it as taking from the poor to help the rich (although it does neither), but at this point I have no concern for the political prospects of the Democratic Party.
I'm sure my suggestion will never happen, but I'm just as sure that your proposals will also never happen (or to the extent they do, they won't play out as intended). So if we are going to discuss hypotheticals we should talk about the real problem which is simply a political struggle between banks and the people at large.
Thank you for this thoughtful comment! I like your alternative of making the creditors (instead of taxpayers) responsible for writing off the loans. Really I like any idea that puts some of the risk and responsibility back on the other beneficiaries of the current system. And wouldn't it be great to use another idea from Deuteronomy and have a jubilee year, or something similar that would give people a fresh start? We can dream, right?
One the issues right now is that we're in an inflationary period. A lot of people have their brains stuck in the Great Recession, where we needed to put any spending out there we could to put the economy back on track. I would have supported more forgiveness then, since it would have been something. But, right now, the economy is at its a capacity. Any additional spending will increase prices without increasing output. So forgiving loans to help people a buy, for instance, would just increase the price of homes, which doesn't seem very progressive.
As for the credential inflation, it seems like the best solution is to stop printing the credential. I would love a German-style system where a much smaller proportion of the population can attend college.
I hadn’t thought about the issue of plain old regular inflation, and I agree that handing out money to forgive debt--especially for borrowers who can afford to pay it back--will make inflation worse, which would also hurt low- and middle-income people.
Lots of interesting stuff here.
I agree that a lot of people feel compelled to get a degree because so many jobs that never used to require one …often now require one, such as administrative assistant. I like your idea of incentives for employers who don’t play that silly game.
On the other hand, it’s become something of a requirement for office work, such that everyone who applies has a bachelor’s degree at minimum and often a master’s of some kind. The people who don’t have anything are often not the “go-getters”— and therefore, while there’s nothing in the nature of the work that requires higher education, the person who pursued a degree or two is viewed as a “typical worker” and the person who “only” completed high school is viewed with suspicion. Why didn’t they continue in school?
And to be fair, most people who choose not to pursue an education are _not_ like the young man you mentioned who took his college fund and did something else with it. (Very cool by the way.)
Add this wrinkle: the online diploma mills. At my workplace, among the administrative staff, there are a _lot_ of people pursuing master’s degrees or even PhDs from online schools and one can’t help but wonder how those expensive degrees are helping anyone do their jobs, except to make them look better educated when they want to move up. But indeed, it seems to work that way. Don’t you want to hire a PhD, even a diploma mill one, as opposed to a high school graduate? It seems a lot of people do.
I don’t know about anyone else, but when I’m hiring, if a candidate has a diploma mill degree, that’s a ding against them.
But…all that being said, I still think everyone, whether they want to pursue a trade or get a traditional college education, should be prepared by society to enter the world of work without debt.
You know infinitely more than I do about universities in Europe. But I do know that what provides value in the college experience isn’t the pretty campus and the gym and the increasingly nice dorm rooms. What provides value is the education. So, if it’s fair to say that European universities are more spartan/utilitarian, then so be it. That’s a trade I’d gladly take for our American kids.
On the other hand, I’m not a fan of “knowing what you want to study” ahead of time. A lot of kids do know, but a lot don’t. Then again, the huge UC system in California requires that kids apply and be admitted to a specific major, after which it’s very hard to switch.
I don’t like it, but again, it’s a trade-off I would accept (spartan universities, applying to a particular major) in exchange for a debt-free education for every American who wants it.
Thank you for sharing these thoughts! I agree with you about European universities vs. those in the US. My son went to university in the UK, and it was a great choice for him because he knew from the time that he was about 10 that he wanted to study history. But most kids don’t know their calling so young, and for them, the US college experience of exploration makes more sense.
Don’t you think the nice facilities and fun times are part of what makes so many American students want to go to college? I’m not against the spartanization idea, but I think it would not only disincentivize college for the people who would do better in other career tracks, too much would make college a drudge.
Nah, I’m one of those old grumps who don’t think you need a lot of luxury and comfort in college if what you’re pursuing is knowledge in a field you’re passionate about —that’s enough reward In itself isn’t it?
How could the pursuit of knowledge ever be a drudge? Haha
Maybe that’s not realistic, and I also defer to Mari’s comment, because she has real-world experience with these other universities and the differences between them and the US, which I just don’t.
But don’t you think to some extent fancy dorms and better food and exercise facilities are being “sold” to people when that’s not the stuff that should be “sold”?
Or maybe another way to put it is, there’s a lot of room between excess luxury and spartanization.
I agree, and in fact the strong preference for European students from my kids’ schools (who can afford it) is to go to US colleges. The UK was a great choice for my son academically, but he got no career help or counseling. He would have liked to have stayed in the UK to work, but his university basically said, “You’re on your own for getting a visa, making contacts, finding internships, etc.” I was surprised, because my daughter’s small liberal arts college has career counseling, help with finding internships, seminars on writing a resume and interviewing, etc., beginning immediately. She has already taken advantage of them.
"At my workplace, among the administrative staff, there are a _lot_ of people pursuing master’s degrees or even PhDs from online schools and one can’t help but wonder how those expensive degrees are helping anyone do their jobs, except to make them look better educated when they want to move up. But indeed, it seems to work that way."
I can't believe employers are falling for this shit. There's the whole "Ed.D" thing that university admins have, which doesn't seem to have made them better at administering universities. In my field, there's a trillion "data science" masters where you copy-paste code that could be copy-pasted for free elsewhere.
My algorithms regularly feed me ads for fake-looking tech degrees that I could have! Yes it seems a lot of employers in our region are enamored with these degrees, to the extent that probably a majority of the applicants for the entry-level admin jobs have master’s degrees. Some are real and some are diploma mill degrees.
It's just such a shitty life, honestly. Why is it considered progressive to want people to spend more and more time in school? Unlike universities, at least my bourgeoise neoliberal overlords pay me.
Very thoughtful and challenging article. I think a great place to begin is honoring our commitment to the kids who signed up for public service. It's a disgrace so few have received the forgiveness they deserve. Why oh why is it so hard to implement the laws we pass in a manner that reflects the intent?
My husband just received debt forgiveness this year after 15 years in public service, thanks to the Biden administration’s new policy.
I am so glad to hear that!
Exactly. I was shocked when I learned how few people have gotten the debt relief to which they were entitled. As your son would say, "Do better!"
These kinds of programs are great and I know many who have benefited from them. State schools sometimes have partnerships with the community colleges, ensuring the credits can transfer to existing degree programs. This is especially great in states like Georgia, which pays the tuition of resident students who maintain a certain (I think a B-average) GPA, if they attend state schools. My brother just finished his master’s in teaching there, having moved from a community college to an excellent four-year state school.
Community colleges are such great options--the teaching is often better than at flagship universities because community college professors aren’t under pressure to publish, so they can focus on teaching. The husband of my friend I mentioned at the end of the post was the president of two different community colleges in the Twin Cities, and he said that the students were especially dedicated and hardworking because they were the first in their families to go to college.
I have a BA but I’m taking science prerequisites at community college for a second, accelerated BA in nursing. Many many of the students in my classes are adults with families.
Thanks for the link! This sounds like a great idea!