The "you guys" bit seems totally performative. It's true, some people might feel really bad being called "you guys"- like trans women who are used to being called guys as an insult, or people who feel like they're being lumped in with a bad group. The solution isn't to stop saying "you guys" at all, though- it's to just. Not say it around the people who find it offensive, specifically (I have this problem a lot with a writing group I run online, where one person hates a lot of very common writing subjects... thankfully my friend supported my decision to tell him "I can't say nobody should talk about that, just ask that they don't talk about it around you".)
Exactly! It is just basic politeness when an individual says they don't like a certain term not to use it, but no one was saying anything of the kind in the comment thread. It was just this random guy purporting to speak for others, and using it as an opportunity to scold.
And good for you for sticking up for yourself in your writing group. Sounds like you've found a balance between expressing oneself and being considerate.
Great post. The worst dynamic I see is when some loud person decides that a certain word or phrase is offensive, and a bunch of their followers (who were never bothered before) jump on a new opportunity to police others.
If a term is genuinely hurtful to a certain group of people, they will know it. If they didn't realize it could be construed as offensive until they read a long Twitter thread... maybe we're better off letting it go.
For example, I never blink at "you guys" even though I'm not a guy. I could train myself to hear it as sexist, and start cringing and correcting people.... but I'd rather continue to be blissfully unbothered.
Yup. For example, I am old enough to remember when Asian people were called "Oriental." And then a lot of people started speaking up and saying they preferred to be called Asian. And we all changed! It's not hard to know when a term is genuinely offensive to the people it targets.
Oh, yes. It's so clear when people don't actually care that a word is offensive to some people, they just want an excuse to bully whatever celebrity used it out of ignorance.
Best use of Roy Kent's picture! Love him! And thank you for an excellent conversation with my son this morning based on your writing! We shared enlightening discourse revealing his generation's take on what language counts as offensive or inflammatory and shared thoughts about our current version of American "cancel culture". It was fantastic! Thanks Mari! Additionally, and eventually, perhaps your "musings" will find their way to the hands of academia? Kind of wish I was teaching right now so I could use these thought provoking and highly enjoyable essays in the classroom!
Oh, thank you so much for sharing this! I'm so glad you were able to have a meaningful conversation with your son in which you listened to each other's perspectives. That's what it's all about!
Feb 17, 2022·edited Feb 17, 2022Liked by Mari, the Happy Wanderer
This is probably my favorite among your posts (and I’ve enjoyed all of ‘em)!
I wish we could grab people by the lapels and force different standards of behavior on them, because while it’s natural for middle agers like me to look back on a halcyon age when all sorts of stuff was better, this thing in particular — the ways we responded to being offended — really was better.
Great musings on an important topic, Mari. So much more progress and peace can be had in human and global relations if people and nations just stopped using their values and prerogatives consistently as a central reference point in their interactions. The (Kantian) maxim of putting yourself in the other's shoes could go a long way to fostering mutual understanding and universal harmony. Probably too utopian an idea perhaps?
Sometimes it can seem like it's utopian to expect people to interact with empathy and generosity, but the more of us who try, the more normal it will be. I have to hope!
Feb 17, 2022·edited Feb 17, 2022Liked by Mari, the Happy Wanderer
Seems like putting ourselves in others’ shoes is something “we” (by which I mean “I and people of a similar Gen X age”) grew up with. It hardly seemed utopian at all. It seemed quite practical in fact. And it seemed the basis for all progress.
That’s why it’s so puzzling and sad to me that we’ve so thoroughly dispensed with it. You don’t have to put yourself in anyone’s shoes, you don’t have to apply the Golden Rule, if someone is an oppressor, a bad guy, a monster. You just let your outrage rip and feel virtuous about it.
A lot of social interaction (increasingly in person, where it’s been seeping out, but certainly online) is about outrage and being offended, because outrage sells, and outrage is fun to participate in when you sure you’re right. It’s profitable to others when outrage makes you click, when it keeps you responding / engaging instead of doing something else.
Outrage is profitable to social media— and we’re mostly all on social media.
It’s pitched as progress, everyone being “outraged” all the time — but it’s a big step backward. It’s destructive in ways we haven’t yet fully appreciated. A good portion of us now believe those who disagree with us politically are evil in some way. This is not the way anyone influences change or advances an agenda, no matter how meritorious.
I agree that it's a big step backward, not only for our relationships with other people, but for our own mental health. Ruminating on how offended we are just makes us feel worse. I admire your efforts in your Substack to host polite and thought-provoking discussions, even among people who disagree!
Mar 8, 2022·edited Mar 8, 2022Liked by Mari, the Happy Wanderer
I'm so glad I stumbled onto your substack. I was called a "grammar bigot" once, which is ridiculous, and I ignored it, but I have to admit that it has lingered too long in my mind. I felt like if I tried to explain what you just explained very well, I'd come off like a little league coach telling a hurt kid, "Suck it up. Don't be a pussy." (which is how I learned about this.)
I'm so glad you like it! And I totally get it--I'm a former editor and English teacher! Who will undangle those participles if not the grammar bigots? (Joking, although in my own writing I am meticulous to the point of perfectionism.)
I understand your dad’s view on swearing, my mum had a similar view; she would have been a little older (100 this year if still with us) but same generation. Damn was the worst she said. I remember suggesting a movie for us all to watch as I knew she would love the actors (Robert Redford and Sidney Poitier) the movie is Sneakers. I completely forgot that the F word was prevalent…..she flinched every time it was used and I was so acutely aware of it which normally I am not! I always taught my kids it is ok to swear but not to use the word at someone. I.e. you stub your toe and can swear at the bedpost. But you cannot call a person you f#%*^! One of my favorite utterances is OFFS! It is usually at a situation not a specific person.
Regarding your question should we speak up, yes if genuinely hurt, but absolutely do it in a kind way, privately and not accusatory.
You are making me laugh, because when I was growing up, we weren't even allowed to say "dang"! I'm not offended by swearing, but I never use it in my own writing because I know it bothers some people, and because there is almost always a more interesting, precise word you can use in place of a curse word. And I like your distinction between swearing at objects (those bedposts have a lot to answer for!) vs. swearing at a person, which is never right.
The "you guys" bit seems totally performative. It's true, some people might feel really bad being called "you guys"- like trans women who are used to being called guys as an insult, or people who feel like they're being lumped in with a bad group. The solution isn't to stop saying "you guys" at all, though- it's to just. Not say it around the people who find it offensive, specifically (I have this problem a lot with a writing group I run online, where one person hates a lot of very common writing subjects... thankfully my friend supported my decision to tell him "I can't say nobody should talk about that, just ask that they don't talk about it around you".)
Exactly! It is just basic politeness when an individual says they don't like a certain term not to use it, but no one was saying anything of the kind in the comment thread. It was just this random guy purporting to speak for others, and using it as an opportunity to scold.
And good for you for sticking up for yourself in your writing group. Sounds like you've found a balance between expressing oneself and being considerate.
Great post. The worst dynamic I see is when some loud person decides that a certain word or phrase is offensive, and a bunch of their followers (who were never bothered before) jump on a new opportunity to police others.
If a term is genuinely hurtful to a certain group of people, they will know it. If they didn't realize it could be construed as offensive until they read a long Twitter thread... maybe we're better off letting it go.
For example, I never blink at "you guys" even though I'm not a guy. I could train myself to hear it as sexist, and start cringing and correcting people.... but I'd rather continue to be blissfully unbothered.
Yup. For example, I am old enough to remember when Asian people were called "Oriental." And then a lot of people started speaking up and saying they preferred to be called Asian. And we all changed! It's not hard to know when a term is genuinely offensive to the people it targets.
Oh, yes. It's so clear when people don't actually care that a word is offensive to some people, they just want an excuse to bully whatever celebrity used it out of ignorance.
Best use of Roy Kent's picture! Love him! And thank you for an excellent conversation with my son this morning based on your writing! We shared enlightening discourse revealing his generation's take on what language counts as offensive or inflammatory and shared thoughts about our current version of American "cancel culture". It was fantastic! Thanks Mari! Additionally, and eventually, perhaps your "musings" will find their way to the hands of academia? Kind of wish I was teaching right now so I could use these thought provoking and highly enjoyable essays in the classroom!
Oh, thank you so much for sharing this! I'm so glad you were able to have a meaningful conversation with your son in which you listened to each other's perspectives. That's what it's all about!
This is probably my favorite among your posts (and I’ve enjoyed all of ‘em)!
I wish we could grab people by the lapels and force different standards of behavior on them, because while it’s natural for middle agers like me to look back on a halcyon age when all sorts of stuff was better, this thing in particular — the ways we responded to being offended — really was better.
I think it helps to model civilized conversations, and also to ask open-ended questions--and then listen.
Great musings on an important topic, Mari. So much more progress and peace can be had in human and global relations if people and nations just stopped using their values and prerogatives consistently as a central reference point in their interactions. The (Kantian) maxim of putting yourself in the other's shoes could go a long way to fostering mutual understanding and universal harmony. Probably too utopian an idea perhaps?
Sometimes it can seem like it's utopian to expect people to interact with empathy and generosity, but the more of us who try, the more normal it will be. I have to hope!
Seems like putting ourselves in others’ shoes is something “we” (by which I mean “I and people of a similar Gen X age”) grew up with. It hardly seemed utopian at all. It seemed quite practical in fact. And it seemed the basis for all progress.
That’s why it’s so puzzling and sad to me that we’ve so thoroughly dispensed with it. You don’t have to put yourself in anyone’s shoes, you don’t have to apply the Golden Rule, if someone is an oppressor, a bad guy, a monster. You just let your outrage rip and feel virtuous about it.
A lot of social interaction (increasingly in person, where it’s been seeping out, but certainly online) is about outrage and being offended, because outrage sells, and outrage is fun to participate in when you sure you’re right. It’s profitable to others when outrage makes you click, when it keeps you responding / engaging instead of doing something else.
Outrage is profitable to social media— and we’re mostly all on social media.
It’s pitched as progress, everyone being “outraged” all the time — but it’s a big step backward. It’s destructive in ways we haven’t yet fully appreciated. A good portion of us now believe those who disagree with us politically are evil in some way. This is not the way anyone influences change or advances an agenda, no matter how meritorious.
I agree that it's a big step backward, not only for our relationships with other people, but for our own mental health. Ruminating on how offended we are just makes us feel worse. I admire your efforts in your Substack to host polite and thought-provoking discussions, even among people who disagree!
Thank you so much Mari! That's truly the heart of my project! <3
I'm so glad I stumbled onto your substack. I was called a "grammar bigot" once, which is ridiculous, and I ignored it, but I have to admit that it has lingered too long in my mind. I felt like if I tried to explain what you just explained very well, I'd come off like a little league coach telling a hurt kid, "Suck it up. Don't be a pussy." (which is how I learned about this.)
I'm so glad you like it! And I totally get it--I'm a former editor and English teacher! Who will undangle those participles if not the grammar bigots? (Joking, although in my own writing I am meticulous to the point of perfectionism.)
I understand your dad’s view on swearing, my mum had a similar view; she would have been a little older (100 this year if still with us) but same generation. Damn was the worst she said. I remember suggesting a movie for us all to watch as I knew she would love the actors (Robert Redford and Sidney Poitier) the movie is Sneakers. I completely forgot that the F word was prevalent…..she flinched every time it was used and I was so acutely aware of it which normally I am not! I always taught my kids it is ok to swear but not to use the word at someone. I.e. you stub your toe and can swear at the bedpost. But you cannot call a person you f#%*^! One of my favorite utterances is OFFS! It is usually at a situation not a specific person.
Regarding your question should we speak up, yes if genuinely hurt, but absolutely do it in a kind way, privately and not accusatory.
You are making me laugh, because when I was growing up, we weren't even allowed to say "dang"! I'm not offended by swearing, but I never use it in my own writing because I know it bothers some people, and because there is almost always a more interesting, precise word you can use in place of a curse word. And I like your distinction between swearing at objects (those bedposts have a lot to answer for!) vs. swearing at a person, which is never right.