30 Comments

1. I’m pleased to have been pronouncing your name correctly in my mind!

2. Interesting post! Yes there’s always context. Even some of the Criminal Karens’ story is more complex, such as the story of Amy Cooper, the Central Park dog walker. She lost her job, her dog, was publicly made out to be a horrible person, was doxxed and had to go into hiding (from which she has not yet emerged I think). Turns out the “innocent black guy” she called 911 on is a guy who’s been in altercations with other dog-walkers, including other men, and the dog-walkers say he is menacing and threatening to people and their dogs. He got into a physical fight with at least one guy. He approached this woman in a deserted part of the park, was aggressive with her, and she perceived him as threatening her dog and she got scared. I’d be scared of any guy who’d done that set of behaviors, and it doesn’t matter if he was black or white. Then he turned on his phone, started recording, acted all meek (instead of just leaving the area) and the rest is history. It would have sounded like a made-up story, this weird Jekyll-Hyde guy threatening people’s dogs, except that he’s done it to a bunch of people and is locally famous for it.

So… sometimes even Criminal Karen has a context. I doubt if there are roving bands of middle-aged racist white women just trying to ruin someone’s day. There is no doubt a Truly Bad psychopathic joy-killing “Karen” somewhere, but her existence hardly deserves smearing a category of women.

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I am so glad you shared this context! I thought about including it, but my post was getting long, and I wanted to focus on Complaining Karens anyway. But you are right--and in addition, Amy Cooper had been sexually assaulted in the past, which may also have influenced her reaction.

Incidentally, way back when the story first came out, I made the mistake of posting on Facebook that I thought it was terrible that they had taken her dog away. You would not believe the pushback I got (or rather, you probably would).

I do think that in spite of the additional context, Amy Cooper committed the crime of false reporting, and it was appropriate that she faced consequences in the criminal justice system. But I did not agree with the many people who thought there ought to be no limit to the hell that should rain down on her.

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I know just what you mean— often my posts get very long and I need to draw a line somewhere. You do a really good job keeping yours a reasonable length! (I should take notes…)

I’m not sure what constitutes false reporting, but after I heard that guy had been physical with that other guy before, and in a similar context, I don’t have the impression that she reported anything in bad faith?

But honestly I don’t know the details of that.

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I have to laugh--drawing a line is so difficult for me! Whenever you see a multi-part series of posts from me, it’s because my post was getting too long, so I split it. In fact my next two posts will be on aspects of the Karens problem for this very reason!

And for the record, I love your long posts!

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Aw thanks Mari! Really looking forward to more about the Karens!

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Sep 2, 2022Liked by Mari, the Happy Wanderer

So many of the "Karen" videos that went around in 2020 struck me as pathological behaviour, or behaviour that had more context than was apparent. Like there was one that was obviously staged with a guy who got out of his car and told this woman she'd been giving him the finger as he'd been following her in his car, which, someone is obviously following you, you get scared and angry anyway, whoever you are. She then started to freak out and scream (this guy was filming her) and covering her face and her numberplate. This other chick was interviewed describing what this terrible racist harridan had done. I'm pretty sure the whole thing was fake including the screaming chick, but the way liberals were retweeting this all "white people are more scared of being called racist than they are of Black people getting shot" was fucking incredible. Turned out the guy was a rich dude and Trump supporter - his previous deal was thrusting a camera in people's faces all "I'm Black and support Trump, what are you gonna do about it?".

It's kind of visceral to me, because I have severe ADHD and emotional dysregulation. I've been involved in left activism in the past, and I never go to demonstrations because I'm worried about getting overwhelmed and claustrophobic, which would be one thing - but I've also been known to have massive screaming fits. In public, I'll literally start biting the fuck out of my hands rather than scream, if it happens, so it looks like I'm basically just crying like a baby over nothing. But I might have a screaming fit. One possibility is that a cop would take that as a reason to beat the crap out of me (French cops are brutal), another is that one of my "comrades" might film me as a Karen and post the video on the internet.

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That story of the man who staged the confrontation is really frightening. I have long thought that many of those women in the Karen videos were suffering from mental illness. Many of us have had the experience of standing in a high place and having the intrusive, impulsive thought, “What if I threw myself over?” I think some of the women in the videos have succumbed to a similar impulse. In our culture, being publicly racist is akin to committing social suicide, and I truly believe that that is what some of these women are doing. (Some of them are probably just in a rotten mood or bossy, though.)

I am so sorry about your ADHD and anxiety. I hope you have people in your life who can help you. The last thing people who are struggling need is a phone in their face filming them.

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May 12, 2022Liked by Mari, the Happy Wanderer

I have some Grouchy Internet Feminist feelings about the Karen phenomenon - as you say, we don't have an equivalent term for a snippy, entitled man in a customer service interaction, but those certainly exist. My wife works a customer service job, and it turns out demanding to speak to the manager is gender-neutral.

I appreciate your point about contextualizing the Karen, and looking at what else is going on in her day and her life before judging her. The moment a woman does something we don't like, she somehow ceases to be herself and immediately becomes a meme-ified version of *every* woman who does something we don't like. There's something a bit dehumanizing about it, if that isn't too dramatic a term-- the immediate cultural punishment for a woman who makes a fuss is to be turned into a kind of platonic ideal of petty bitchiness.

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I am troubled by the difference it makes if the complainer is young and pretty, or a man, or a powerful person. When the complainer has any kind of power, whether through his status as a man or because of money or social status or the appeal of being sexually desirable, we grant them leeway. I just think we should be giving the same kind of leeway to older women too.

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Sep 2, 2022Liked by Mari, the Happy Wanderer

Just found your writing through Freddie de Boer's subscriber posts - this is a super old post but I can't help but comment, when the complainer has social status or is under a certain age, it's the customer service worker who becomes a "Karen".

I read a Guardian article months ago (maybe last year? slightly slow on the uptake from the internet phenomenon, but still kind of surfing on it), I think by a white woman - she described her mother's "Karen-like tendencies" - saying how useful it was for women of colour, saying it was handy for them when they called into a call centre and got someone annoying or rude or incompetent and they could just say "It was Susan". (So like, not Karen, but you know, her slightly uppity cousin).

Which is also a problem with internet opinion-makers and even a lot of people I was around in feminist activist groups that hit me when I started working in a call centre years ago, for a small internet retail company : they might be roughly liberal or on the left, but they seem kind of pampered and sheltered and upper middle-class, and they see call-centre workers and service workers a bit like Alex Jones sees airport attendants, as people with power over them telling them what to do. Which also links to your article about Mansplaining somewhat. Definitely get that vibe from Rebecca Solnit.

Also I live in France, I'm kind of dreading in like five years when the "Karen" phenomenon hits and sociology professors describe it as a term coined by grassroots working-class African American activists, the likes of Zemmour and Florian Philippot start penning polemics against its pernicious influence on society, and you're considered a massive racist and sexist if you don't approve of it, and it actually becomes a weapon for the far right, as seems to happen with a lot of imported American concepts. Sigh.

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Great comment. There are definitely people out there who treat service workers horribly. My son used to work in the meat department at Whole Foods, and he could tell some stories about the entitled, pampered customers.

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May 12, 2022Liked by Mari, the Happy Wanderer

Completely agree!

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May 13, 2022Liked by Mari, the Happy Wanderer

I really liked this post. We do not have a name for white men who complain or are abusive or overly aggressive and yet it happens all the time. When the term first became popularized I complained about something to a friend and then said, half-joking, that I didn't want to be a Karen. Without missing a beat, my friend said, "Well the label 'Karen,' is just misogyny." This friend is not usually so forthright and categorical in her language, so her use of the word misogyny in this context impressed me. After that I was done with the label. My summary comment on your post would be--let's fix problems rather than negatively label the people who act them out (Karens, "lazy" service workers). America is becoming more and more of a dog eat dog world due to excessive capitalism (as you point out) benefiting the wealthy few and more and more working against the interests of most of the rest of us.

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So well said! Thank you for this comment! There are much better ways to solve our problems than name-calling.

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May 13, 2022Liked by Mari, the Happy Wanderer

I never sent food back in a restaurant, but after several years of eating out with a particular friend who would send French fries back for not being hot enough, I was served way over done lamb chops, so I asked for them to be re done, my dinner companions ate their entire plates and I was still waiting for my replacement lamb. I complained again and this time only a few minutes later I was brought almost raw lamb chops! I like medium rare. When I posted a review on yelp the owner chastised me for not understanding the “meaning” of medium rare, neither version of my dinner would ever be considered mid rare!.needless to say we have never eaten there again. On a different point, where not only a Karen moment but where privilege really played a part. I can only post this here because no one I work with is on your reader list…. Recently a group of young black men got permission from Student life to do a dance/rap number in our college cafeteria, I saw our security officer running at full speed towards the area but had no idea what was happening, a colleague witnessed a young black man running out of the building at full speed. It wasn’t until the next day we started to hear the whole tale. The group were doing their thing when a senior member of the college, a white woman in her 60’s, apparently felt threatened and called security ( I guess we can be thankful she did not call 911!). A day or so later the Student Life staff member who had given permission to the students, was called to the Presidents office and hauled over the coals for not informing the entire cabinet of this event. REALLY??? At no time, when organizing events on campus, have I, or any other office, informed the cabinet prior to an event! Needless to say the only person chastised was the student life staff member, not the white woman for over reacting! The optics are so bad here! I recall the news story of a black student hanging out in a common area and someone calling the cops….this felt just as bad! Thank you Mari ( I know how to pronounce your name!) for this topic!

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What an awful, sad story. That fearful woman ruined a fun concert for the students and probably caused some young artists to feel horrible at best, and legitimately terrified at worst. And it is very sad that the unequal treatment extends to the administration. No one should have been hauled over the coals for booking a musical group as entertainment!

I wonder if someone from Student Life (not one of the dancers or musicians) could sit down with this woman and ask her why she felt afraid, and maybe show her some hip hop videos to help her open up a bit. It is so sad to me that some people still react with such fear of Black people just doing normal things.

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May 12, 2022Liked by Mari, the Happy Wanderer

I really dislike the term "Karens" - hadn't even heard of it until recently. I giggled at being part of the more "aggressive Northeastern family" (Is that how you termed it). For the record, the influence of you and your family, on at least one member of that family, has been to recognize and try to curb some of the spontaneous responses a bit in honor of Minnesota courtesy! We all can use some modulation....But the best thing to do with the term "Karens" in my opinion - is throw it out!!!

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Assertive! I called you assertive! 😊 And that you so much for the kind words--and for encouraging me to stand up for myself!

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Sep 12, 2023Liked by Mari, the Happy Wanderer

I am also late to this conversation. As a middle aged, Midwestern American white woman who was raised similarly to Mari, and as a human being, I too have felt aggrieved by this relatively new slur against my demographic group.

I have taken the opportunity to prevent the criminal behaviors Mari described some white people engage in against people of color. But of course this does not protect me in the current American political climate from being seen as a form of either of the two Karens Mari described. From this viewpoint, I agree with several of the points made in this comment section.

What new point do I want to make?

Many of us who are conscientious, from all demographic groups, have come to understand that our historically privileged statuses can make us blind to the experiences of those whom our own demographic groups have historically oppressed. We know, too often, these oppressive systems live on today... sometimes because we personally add to these problems, however unintentionally.

Many of us care deeply about unintentional oppression and don't know what to do about it in every day life, especially in an increasingly contentious social environment. Because I'm human, it's not always easy for me to practice either part of what I'm about to preach... but I suggest these for middle-aged white women who want to strike some sort of balance between personal growth and social growth.

[A] Yes, if the situation calls for it, we can opt to speak assertively in real and virtual spaces, and...

[B] If we should find we're labeled as a Karen, we can also opt to sit with that pain, and process it as a portal for compassion. For example, we might consider what it might feel like if everyone we descended from, for decades or centuries, were unlikely to be able to safely voice complaints to a manager, leader, or government official, who was of our own racial group. What might it feel like to be brown person with that intergenerational heritage, when a white person asks to speak to their (potentially white) boss, possibly endangering their livelihood, or at least reminding them of the possibility? How might our complaining about a customer service problem to their boss feel like it's on the same frightening spectrum as wrongfully reporting to the police? Of course we might also be willing to release our own pain from being called a relatively new slur, such as Karen, when we consider the historic pain of decades and centuries of racial slurs against BIPOC people that continue to this day.

Thanks again for a thought provoking article, Mari. (Love the Ting Tings reference!) 🦋🧡🦋

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Thank you so much for this thoughtful and deeply sympathetic comment, Candy. I especially appreciate that you offer practical suggestions for how we can respond to the Karen slur that will help us feel better and also be better.

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Aug 4, 2022Liked by Mari, the Happy Wanderer

My wife's name is Karen. When the whole Karen thing started up, she initially brushed it off, or pointed out that she did not have the Karen haircut (exemplified by the "Kate" woman with 8 kids), nor did she ever ask to speak with the manager. "Why can't they use Lisa" (we have a neighbor named Lisa, who is a trust fund variety Karen). Then, that super bowl ad where woman 1 tells woman 2: "I'm sorry I called you Karen." Woman 2 replies: "But, my name is Karen." Woman 1: "I'm sorry you're name is Karen."

For many months thereafter, whenever we'd run into another women named Karen, my wife and her would swap Karen stories. I think it's a club now.

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All my friends named Karen now take pride in their name and reject the stereotype. Please greet your wife for me and let her know that I am a fan of her name!

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Aug 4, 2022·edited Aug 4, 2022Liked by Mari, the Happy Wanderer

Ah, yes, the league of Karens!

She's a retired school teacher, thick skin.

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Aug 4, 2022Liked by Mari, the Happy Wanderer

By the way, I read your article because it was linked on the FdB substack.

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Aug 1, 2022Liked by Mari, the Happy Wanderer

Yes but... goats milk is one of the most vile substances on this planet and sheeps milk and all of its associated products are simply divine. So in spite of my lack of a consistent belief system, chock one up for the New Testament and it’s recommendation to keep our square eyed friends separate!

More related to the essay topic: sticking up for yourself is never a bad idea! Do the right thing and stop worrying about what strangers think, because 99% of the time you are probably doing the right thing anyway.

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Lol about goat’s milk! (Which I have never tried, but I am willing to believe you!)

And excellent point that we know what’s best for ourselves. As Rabbi Hillel said, If I am not for myself, who will be for me?

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May 15, 2022Liked by Mari, the Happy Wanderer

The Karen thing is definitely misogynist.. it's weird that feminism used to hold a central place in the culture wars, but it's been entirely displaced by race

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I agree that it’s misogynist, especially because we don’t have a similar slur for men. (Not that I think we should add one! I don’t think we should be using slurs against anyone!)

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May 13, 2022Liked by Mari, the Happy Wanderer

I enjoyed reading your piece. What I object to more than anything else is assigning a beautiful female name to behaviors that some, many, or most people object to. I have friends named Karen, and I feel sorry for them and all the real life Karens out there who are good people. I would feel very badly if my first name were used as a blanket derogatory term, and I wish we could find a better moniker.

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Yes. I have many friends named Karen, and they all feel bad about what has happened to their name. Now every time they introduce themselves, their name is no longer neutral. They have to acknowledge the Karen slur somehow--“My name is Karen, but I’m not one of THOSE Karens,” for example.

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