"our levels of growth mindset are innate and vary tremendously from person to person." One of those things that is obviously true but not allowed to be said, "genetics," you know. Bad thought. But what a wonderful world (or better anyhow) if we could value people simply as human beings doing the best they can with whatever gifts they have instead of pretending everyone with enough hard work and right mind set can be A students and in the professional class. MLK admired the street cleaner who took pride in his clean streets. Oh, that we could be like that.
Excellent comment! I agree that we should value everyone as human beings, without regard to their mindset or achievements. And really, isn’t the world a better, more interesting place because we are all so varied?
There's a scene from the old TV show Northern Exposure, where Ruthanne talks about her two sons. She says happily "One's a truck driver and writes poetry!" When prodded about the other son she says quietly, well, he's a lawyer. They can't all be interesting.
The latter! I think it is undeniable that the growth mindset is an important component of success, as my friend Jana’s story illustrates!
But the evidence shows that school programs that attempt to inculcate growth mindset fail to achieve measurable results. I think that people vary in their innate levels of growth mindset. It is of course a good thing for parents and teachers to encourage kids to keep trying and to persist through obstacles. But some of us will shrug off obstacles more easily than others, and for that second group, I think it is more productive to help them find their passion--something they are good at and really care about--than to inform them that they are failing at a given task because they haven’t tried hard enough.
This reminds me of the ubiquitous "find your passion" talk. I want to think it's true that people who find their passion tend more to the "growth" mindset, at least in the area of their passion. It might not be so, but people I know who love to do something seem to go to lengths beyond, in their pursuit of their life loves. So, this general "growth" mindset might be a broader continuum than the "few kids" who went for the long toss would otherwise indicate.
I also feel incentives matter. As noted, often, costs are emphasized, but then crazy opportunities and risky approaches are devalued.
In any case, not everyone is keyed into this "growth" business at a young age and/or over a wide range of activities. For example, along with the bean-bag hula-loop test outside shooter stars, there were undoubtedly other successes from the cadre. What "growth" mindset talents did they develop and when did they develop them? I'd want to know that too.
Great comment! I have also wondered about kids who were not high achievers in school, but who nonetheless may well have been living wonderful lives, full of service and happiness.
I loved my Philosophy of Logic class in college! I took it as an elective and since I am an engineer, all of the math proofs and truth trees were basically easy street. Of course it was a prerequisite class for all the Pre Law students and literally EVERY SINGLE ONE of them were absolutely baffled and hated it. The teacher also had an Einstein haircut, so maybe that didn’t help them either, but I thought it was cool...
Regarding the growth mindset stuff, I just think you can’t teach someone to be interested in something. Nobody had to tell me to be interested in chemistry- it just happened naturally and I had a growth mindset automatically because it was cool to see each new challenge. Of course in my English class, I had no interest whatsoever and I just did the minimum to get the A- while basically learning nothing about my native language.
I guess the moral is, that you can’t stop people from looking for dumb silver bullets (true of almost every area of study). This is just one example of a gigantic exercise in wasted grant money to show that the original result was bunk. I’m sure the original TED talk was great though...
Frankly I think this is a great example of how a social scientist can impose their own interpretation on neutral studies and events. The kids who walked to the center of the hula hoop were "giving up"? No, they were being smart and taking a free win. The kids who went farther out likely weren't just more confident but more interested in challenging themselves, which could be the real "growth mindset" to inculcate. But as you point out, it's not clear that mindsets can be inculcated to begin with.
It's interesting that the beanbag study didn't include gender as a variable. We hear about, and see, white men failing up. Could it be boys who liked the challenge and didn't fear failure because they had all their lives the message that they would succeed no matter what. Race could have been part of it, too. And on that note, so much of the "diversity" training that has been done in the wake of George Floyd's murder has had no effect whatsoever. That's sad, but makes sense. Racism goes so deep for so many people that it's going to take more than a workshop to change attitudes. The same point applies to children. For them to have a growth mindset we have to encourage their growth and independent thinking, as you say Mari. We say that we want people who think outside the box, but pretty much all societal rewards are much more geared toward people who fit in.
Well said. I believe that people respond to incentives (and punishments). So when kids fear making mistakes, it’s not because they are somehow intrinsically lacking, but because they are responding rationally to the world we’ve set up for them.
And yes, it does look as though the replication crisis has come for those diversity trainings too.
Thanks for this nicely balanced article. A growth mindset can help... but the idea (as Freddie has so often written) that all children can achieve the same level of excellence (and that it is largely just conventional identity markers and socio-economic factors that holds them back from this) is patently and frustratingly ridiculous.
So, last year my Year 7s were in ability sets. Now, in Year 8, they are in mixed sets. One of my students from last year really struggled with English, was easily distracted and unambitious. Now, in a mixed set, he's really pushing him and clearly wants to be at the same level as his more high-attaining peers. This is amazing and he has come on quite a lot! However, he's a long way from the understanding and performance of the higher-ability students in the class. Unless those students are going to be prevented from accessing education (or books - since they read in their spare time notably) they are going to continue to achieve more highly than my hearteningly ambitious student. If we didn't live in a society that massively over-values certain forms of labour and achievement over others this would not be an issue (or not in the same way).
My compatibalism on this issue is evidenced by the fact that I support mixed-ability classes within mainstream education //and// special education schools!
Thank you for sharing this comment about your experience! It sounds like you are a middle-school teacher? My dad was a middle-school principal for more than thirty years. People who can work with kids of that age have a special gift and are heroes!
And yes, Freddie has influenced so much of my thinking on this issue. In fact I’m writing a post on it for next week.
Because I'm British I'm secondary school (so, 11-year-olds through to 16-year-olds) though the middle school age students are my favourite ones to work with :)
What a great essay! It's hard to believe that you think of yourself as someone who might shy away from new challenges, or are afraid of not getting an A at anything. Maybe you're just modest, or one of the lucky few who overcame her natural instincts and turned into a Growth Mindset?
I totally picked "as far as possible" without any hesitation. What's the point of completing a totally useless task otherwise? I resisted brainless assignments at a young age, and when I got B's instead of A's my parents were confused, since every test I brought home was a solid A. But the teachers would say well, he didn't do all of his homework. My parents said, well, it's clear that he did enough to learn all the material!
For a time around 6th and 7th grade, I remember being teased for signing up for both hockey and choir, two things I was clearly not any good at. (I dropped hockey when it became clear my feet were not fit to wear ice skates, but stuck in choir all the way through college, even though I was *never* picked to sing a solo.)
It wasn't even until I was a senior in college that I realized my love of trying new things was some kind of super-power. It is a very fortunate gift.
Yes, you are lucky! I do have this quality in one area--learning foreign languages at least well enough to get by. A huge part of being able to do that is just being willing to give it a try, and not worrying about mistakes.
And I am surprised to hear you say that you never got solos, because in high school I always thought you had a beautiful voice.
P.S. Did I ever tell you that at St. Thomas everyone had to take Logic, for boys it was part of the philosophy requirements, for girls, they got foreign language credit. :~)
I giggled when I saw the cows come home!!!! One of your favorites I know! Your concluding
Comments about teachers and teaching - which apply to formal and informal teachers - seem to me spot on. Maybe the “growth mindset” can highlight children most likely to become entrepreneurs- or scientists - where daring coupled with perseverance - may have its biggest payoff.
Great point about entrepreneurs and scientists! The way I see it, having the growth mindset is like having a very useful talent, which ought to be nurtured. But if you don’t have it, all is not lost!
"our levels of growth mindset are innate and vary tremendously from person to person." One of those things that is obviously true but not allowed to be said, "genetics," you know. Bad thought. But what a wonderful world (or better anyhow) if we could value people simply as human beings doing the best they can with whatever gifts they have instead of pretending everyone with enough hard work and right mind set can be A students and in the professional class. MLK admired the street cleaner who took pride in his clean streets. Oh, that we could be like that.
Excellent comment! I agree that we should value everyone as human beings, without regard to their mindset or achievements. And really, isn’t the world a better, more interesting place because we are all so varied?
We Can't Afford Healthcare for American Children Because We Need to Keep Bombing Everyone Else's for the Love of Jesus and Israel . . . https://cwspangle.substack.com/p/we-cant-afford-healthcare-for-american
We Must Outlaw Abortion . . . Jesus Needs More Babies for His War Machine . . . https://cwspangle.substack.com/i/138167431/jesus-needs-more-babies-for-his-war-machine
There's a scene from the old TV show Northern Exposure, where Ruthanne talks about her two sons. She says happily "One's a truck driver and writes poetry!" When prodded about the other son she says quietly, well, he's a lawyer. They can't all be interesting.
Oh, that’s terrific! I loved that show!
Mari, is your conclusion that the growth mindset is not correlated with success or that the growth mindset is ineffectively taught?
The latter! I think it is undeniable that the growth mindset is an important component of success, as my friend Jana’s story illustrates!
But the evidence shows that school programs that attempt to inculcate growth mindset fail to achieve measurable results. I think that people vary in their innate levels of growth mindset. It is of course a good thing for parents and teachers to encourage kids to keep trying and to persist through obstacles. But some of us will shrug off obstacles more easily than others, and for that second group, I think it is more productive to help them find their passion--something they are good at and really care about--than to inform them that they are failing at a given task because they haven’t tried hard enough.
Great piece and interesting comments-
This reminds me of the ubiquitous "find your passion" talk. I want to think it's true that people who find their passion tend more to the "growth" mindset, at least in the area of their passion. It might not be so, but people I know who love to do something seem to go to lengths beyond, in their pursuit of their life loves. So, this general "growth" mindset might be a broader continuum than the "few kids" who went for the long toss would otherwise indicate.
I also feel incentives matter. As noted, often, costs are emphasized, but then crazy opportunities and risky approaches are devalued.
In any case, not everyone is keyed into this "growth" business at a young age and/or over a wide range of activities. For example, along with the bean-bag hula-loop test outside shooter stars, there were undoubtedly other successes from the cadre. What "growth" mindset talents did they develop and when did they develop them? I'd want to know that too.
Great comment! I have also wondered about kids who were not high achievers in school, but who nonetheless may well have been living wonderful lives, full of service and happiness.
I loved my Philosophy of Logic class in college! I took it as an elective and since I am an engineer, all of the math proofs and truth trees were basically easy street. Of course it was a prerequisite class for all the Pre Law students and literally EVERY SINGLE ONE of them were absolutely baffled and hated it. The teacher also had an Einstein haircut, so maybe that didn’t help them either, but I thought it was cool...
Regarding the growth mindset stuff, I just think you can’t teach someone to be interested in something. Nobody had to tell me to be interested in chemistry- it just happened naturally and I had a growth mindset automatically because it was cool to see each new challenge. Of course in my English class, I had no interest whatsoever and I just did the minimum to get the A- while basically learning nothing about my native language.
I guess the moral is, that you can’t stop people from looking for dumb silver bullets (true of almost every area of study). This is just one example of a gigantic exercise in wasted grant money to show that the original result was bunk. I’m sure the original TED talk was great though...
The economic incentives are a big part of the problem, I think. School districts spent so much money on these trainings and materials. What a waste.
Very cool that you enjoyed your logic class! I think I would have liked it too, with a better teacher, because I have always loved math.
Frankly I think this is a great example of how a social scientist can impose their own interpretation on neutral studies and events. The kids who walked to the center of the hula hoop were "giving up"? No, they were being smart and taking a free win. The kids who went farther out likely weren't just more confident but more interested in challenging themselves, which could be the real "growth mindset" to inculcate. But as you point out, it's not clear that mindsets can be inculcated to begin with.
That is a convincing interpretation of what those kids chose! And I say that not just because it’s what I would have done myself. 😊
It's interesting that the beanbag study didn't include gender as a variable. We hear about, and see, white men failing up. Could it be boys who liked the challenge and didn't fear failure because they had all their lives the message that they would succeed no matter what. Race could have been part of it, too. And on that note, so much of the "diversity" training that has been done in the wake of George Floyd's murder has had no effect whatsoever. That's sad, but makes sense. Racism goes so deep for so many people that it's going to take more than a workshop to change attitudes. The same point applies to children. For them to have a growth mindset we have to encourage their growth and independent thinking, as you say Mari. We say that we want people who think outside the box, but pretty much all societal rewards are much more geared toward people who fit in.
Well said. I believe that people respond to incentives (and punishments). So when kids fear making mistakes, it’s not because they are somehow intrinsically lacking, but because they are responding rationally to the world we’ve set up for them.
And yes, it does look as though the replication crisis has come for those diversity trainings too.
Thanks for this nicely balanced article. A growth mindset can help... but the idea (as Freddie has so often written) that all children can achieve the same level of excellence (and that it is largely just conventional identity markers and socio-economic factors that holds them back from this) is patently and frustratingly ridiculous.
So, last year my Year 7s were in ability sets. Now, in Year 8, they are in mixed sets. One of my students from last year really struggled with English, was easily distracted and unambitious. Now, in a mixed set, he's really pushing him and clearly wants to be at the same level as his more high-attaining peers. This is amazing and he has come on quite a lot! However, he's a long way from the understanding and performance of the higher-ability students in the class. Unless those students are going to be prevented from accessing education (or books - since they read in their spare time notably) they are going to continue to achieve more highly than my hearteningly ambitious student. If we didn't live in a society that massively over-values certain forms of labour and achievement over others this would not be an issue (or not in the same way).
My compatibalism on this issue is evidenced by the fact that I support mixed-ability classes within mainstream education //and// special education schools!
Thank you for sharing this comment about your experience! It sounds like you are a middle-school teacher? My dad was a middle-school principal for more than thirty years. People who can work with kids of that age have a special gift and are heroes!
And yes, Freddie has influenced so much of my thinking on this issue. In fact I’m writing a post on it for next week.
Because I'm British I'm secondary school (so, 11-year-olds through to 16-year-olds) though the middle school age students are my favourite ones to work with :)
What a great essay! It's hard to believe that you think of yourself as someone who might shy away from new challenges, or are afraid of not getting an A at anything. Maybe you're just modest, or one of the lucky few who overcame her natural instincts and turned into a Growth Mindset?
I totally picked "as far as possible" without any hesitation. What's the point of completing a totally useless task otherwise? I resisted brainless assignments at a young age, and when I got B's instead of A's my parents were confused, since every test I brought home was a solid A. But the teachers would say well, he didn't do all of his homework. My parents said, well, it's clear that he did enough to learn all the material!
For a time around 6th and 7th grade, I remember being teased for signing up for both hockey and choir, two things I was clearly not any good at. (I dropped hockey when it became clear my feet were not fit to wear ice skates, but stuck in choir all the way through college, even though I was *never* picked to sing a solo.)
It wasn't even until I was a senior in college that I realized my love of trying new things was some kind of super-power. It is a very fortunate gift.
Yes, you are lucky! I do have this quality in one area--learning foreign languages at least well enough to get by. A huge part of being able to do that is just being willing to give it a try, and not worrying about mistakes.
And I am surprised to hear you say that you never got solos, because in high school I always thought you had a beautiful voice.
P.S. Did I ever tell you that at St. Thomas everyone had to take Logic, for boys it was part of the philosophy requirements, for girls, they got foreign language credit. :~)
Interesting. St. Thomas is a Jesuit college, I think? It would make sense that logic would be a requirement.
It’s sweet of you to say so, but I have quit so many things when they get too difficult!
I giggled when I saw the cows come home!!!! One of your favorites I know! Your concluding
Comments about teachers and teaching - which apply to formal and informal teachers - seem to me spot on. Maybe the “growth mindset” can highlight children most likely to become entrepreneurs- or scientists - where daring coupled with perseverance - may have its biggest payoff.
Great point about entrepreneurs and scientists! The way I see it, having the growth mindset is like having a very useful talent, which ought to be nurtured. But if you don’t have it, all is not lost!